Quake1 speedrunning forum

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Thomas Stubgaard
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Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Thomas Stubgaard »

Hi, I thought you guys might be interrested in Quake1 speedrunning....

In case you are, then you should go visit our speedrunning forum as well. There's even threads concerning Doom speedrunning :)

Message board:
http://www.planetquake.com/sda/board/

Doom thread:
http://www.planetquake.com/sda/board/to ... = 0&S=True

P.S. The new layout of Compet-N rocks, and so does this new forum. Keep up the good work guys.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Opulent_ »

I think it's funny that their forms ask if they played DOOM, and our forms ask if we played Quake.   :)
I always wanted to see a cross-game contest... kind of like the CS/QW/Q3A matches at some of the international tournaments.  Maybe I just wanted to be able to say I beat Joe_Quake at deathmatch.  8)
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by 999cop »

ahhhhh, can't keep my mouth closed any longer to not reply to this thread since opulent has bravely first replied this. Yeah, I was wondering why would a person come across all the way to the new competn forum and ask us such a lame question. It is really funny that seeing such people start asking that again  :o However I bet we only love Doom more than Quake...ever
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by xit-vono »

Quake is fun to watch, but I wouldn't want to get into it.  Doom is high quality playing, but the lack of bunny hopping/crazy grenade/rocket jumping makes it less interesting to watch.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by AdamW »

999cop: don't diss quake1 speedrunning, man. Those guys are fucking good. I know there's quite a lot of us who follow at least the most important QDQ / SDA stuff...I definitely do :)
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Thomas Stubgaard »

Thanks Adam :-)

And we (Quake speedrunners) tend to follow the Doom speedrunning scene as well....
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Waldon »

Quake speedrunning is insane, just look at any of the QDQ projects. I can't wait for a built Nightmare run by the QDQ team - hopefully it's possible and they will do it some time.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Jonathan »

Yeah quake speedrunning really does rock.  It was the quake done quick movies that first got me hooked on the idea of speedrunning in the first place.  Compared to Doom speedrunning, Quake runs are more suited to the qdq kind of cinematic treatment.  Thats not to say that Doom runs aren't fun to watch, but they can't really match the beauty of of a fully recammed, bunnyhopping, rocking/grenade/slope/etc jumping, wallrunning quake player flying through Quake in some absurdly fast time.  

Damn all this talking about quake has made me want to go and watch qdqwav again...
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Opulent_ »

okay. okay.
There actually is quite an overlap between the 2 communities... almost indistinguishably so, if you consider ALL pc games.
To defend 999Cop a bit, there are plenty of Quakers who could care less for Doom...  even laugh at it.  :)
I have watched demos for most of the FPS games religiously for quite awhile... I might even boast seeing more than anyone... perhaps AdamH. has me beat, but I kind of doubt that. (I don't doubt that there are many players with more REAL demo knowledge than me.)  I'd say that Doomers still have the edge when it comes to player control....  that is, even Horvath and Paradoks can't match PlanetAdam... and the Q2/Q3/HL players are waaay in the distance.)
(this is an observation -- and an opinion -- I don't mean to provoke or insult)
but back OT, Quake speedrunning OWNS!
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Ilkka_Kurkela »

Stubby wrote:
>> And we (Quake speedrunners) tend to follow the Doom speedrunning scene as well....

That's correct. I also check Compet-N regularly and I've watched every Doom1/2 Done Quick movie, + some tool assisted speedruns. I enjoy watching & playing both Dooms and Quake. The reason why I prefer Quake for speedrunning is the possibility to perform loads of damage-based tricks such as RJs, GJs, monster co-op tricks etc. (yeah I know that this is possible in Dooms too, archvile jumps do rock  ;) )

What makes Doom running so interesting in my opinion is the amount of "weird" ( ;D ) categories such as Pacifist, Tyson, Speedfighter etc. What about Realistic mode? I remember Panter had some lmps in that category at his site. Does anyone run realistic anymore?
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by xit-vono »

hardly anyone makes reality demos because it's not a compet-n category.  I did do a reality tyson for e4m6 with TASdoom though, but that's about it.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by AdamW »

on reality stuff: well, I tried a reality run of episode 1 once, but if it ever gets done it'll be really, really amazingly dull, so don't hold out much hope. :)

on control: hmm. i think you're overstating the difference, opulent. best players for sheer control in doom are adamh, ocelot (how come no-one ever mentions oce? his nomo stuff rules) and sedlo imo...but I wouldn't agree that they're clearly ahead of other games. some of the stuff pulled off in QDQWAV etc requires amazing control...and even as per other quakes, well, do you know how insanely some of the quake3 guys practice? watch some CPMA demos, or some of the quake3 trickjumpers' stuff (especially drpd), and you'll see there's some pretty impressive shit going on there too. we should all just be one big happy family really. :). only heavily-played fps game where i'd say control hardly figures at all is counterstrike, which is a long way different from just about every other fps...
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Opulent »

Agreed.  mostly...
I don't agree with the Q3a comments... but the NQ and QW players are very talented as far as control.
and I'd add you and Vincent to that list of Doomers... for starters...
All the games are somewhat different... I wasn't meaning to criticize.  Esp. since it is really apples and oranges really.
I think the Doom -> NQ -> Q2 -> Q3A slowly shifts from movement control to aim. (to be general about it).
of course, both are relevant in all the games, but I mean overall.
I love all the major FPS games, so please don't see my comments in a negative light.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by AdamW »

well...not really. how important is control in doom deathmatch?

that's the big issue - control in deathmatch is generally nowhere near as important as in single player. this is why q3 has a bad rep for control, obviously - it's dm only. but even q3, when played in cpma mode, needs quite some control - the best players use trickjumps a *lot*. but to really see what some people can do with q3 you have to look outside your normal deathmatch stuff. watch some of the trickjump packs (http://www.boxsocial.org/pimpjumps/ is a good place to start), and watch the demos that are coming out for Defrag. Defrag isn't quiet at compet-n levels of perfection yet, except on a couple of the short runs, but that's because it's a lot newer...all the talent is easily there in the players.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Opulent_ »

ack.
after reading this entire thread again, I can tell I wasn't communicating my thoughts properly.
A new apporach(to close this discussion):
Are there very talented players in every game? yes.
Are the strengths required for each game a little different? yes.
I still think that the Q3 stuff is less impressive and less skillful -- perhaps I am just not impressed by things I can do myself.
Watch T. Stubgaard's recent e1m2 maxdemo(doom term).  That is superior control... and near perfection.
I do think that AdamH. has the best player control of any FPS player... you can't rattle me outta that one.
Am I an idiot? yes.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Thomas Stubgaard »

Watch T. Stubgaard's recent e1m2 maxdemo(doom term).
Last edited by Thomas Stubgaard on 07.11.2001 23:25, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by xit-vono »

Actually I think Quake1 is a *very* control oriented game.  The first reason is there are tons of tricks which require a good amount of precision, such as e1m3 slope gj.  First of all you have to shoot the grenade at the right time, and also you have to jump at just the right instant.  The second reason is control is basically the only skill needed.  In Doom there are typically lots of monsters and good defensive skills are required.  Quake can have lots of monsters, but there is no equivalent to the Doom nightmare skill, and there are no extra difficult playing styles at the SDA.  That means there is no equivalent of e1m6 pacifist style.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Thomas Stubgaard »

The second reason is control is basically the only skill needed

That is absolutely as far from the truth as it can be! As a 100% (Quake term) player myself I'm not relying on my control skills like I rely on other skills. I've spent years getting my aim better and better and I would say that my aim is one of the best seen in Quake demos. Not alot of people can do that. (I bet it would pay off to have cowboy aim when making Doom demos too...)

But, I would agree with you that control skills are a very essential thing to being a good Quake player, but that's not the _only_ skill needed :-)
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by AdamW »

doug...do you mean to tell me you can do every established quake3 trickjump, and beat all the top times on defrag? if so, i'm fucking impressed :).
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by AdamW »

vono: p1m7 would be a better example than p1m6. p1m6 by the route i've established requires someone who can copy me for the first 90% of the demo and one truly huge ladle of luck for the end. there's very little skill in it. p1m3, p1m5 and p1m7 are *much* more skill-dependent runs.

as for vono saying control is the only skill needed, he phrased it badly, but i can see what he's saying...simply because of the way quake and sda are set up, the skillset is a little more limited for quake speedrunning. as he says, sda just doesn't use some of the odder categories which we use over at compet-n, which bring different skills to bear. tyson and pacifist, for instance, both require very detailed knowledge of monster behaviour, which is rarely relevant in quake running, since all the monsters either disappear in the speed haze or get blown to pieces before they even get to move. :) i'd love to see sda bring some odder categories into the mix - i have a feeling quake played pacifist style would be extremely interesting, and would give a nice touch of variety :)
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by xit-vono »

I like the idea of Quake pacifist.  I think it would be fun to see someone run through some levels like e1m1 without harming monsters.  I tried it, but because I suck at Quake, I wasn't able to do it.  You have heard of naked quake, right?  Well, it's basically pacifist style(no weapons, but you can use traps), but instead of finishing it as quickly as possible, the goal is to have as many monsters dead as possible.  I have heard of quake chopped style, where you kill all the monsters with just an axe, but none of these advanced styles are part of SDA.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Thomas Stubgaard »

AdamW: both require very detailed knowledge of monster behaviour, which is rarely relevant in quake running

Not true. In order to do the Nightmare 100% id demos on SDA, you _have_ to have extremely detailed knowledge of the monster behavior. Maybe it seems easy to you guys when you watch some of the demos, but there's been put alot of work into them, and monster behavior is a very essential part of those demos. I know what I'm talking about as I'm the holder of 21 out of 32 id NH records :-)

As I said before, I don't rely on controls skills as much as I rely on other skills, that also includes monster knowledge. I know exactly how many shots of each weapon all the monsters need to die, etc.

But i'd agree that Quake is much simpler than Doom speedrunning, and probably not as challenging. But it would be too much work to start adding all those different categories to SDA. And I doubt the majority of Quake speedrunners would find it interresting in the first place.

On a totally different subject. Have any of you guys tried a new Quake map called n3sp03? It's very much like the old Doom maps, and it also has lotsa sounds taken from Doom. It's an awesome and huge map. You should give it go.

http://www.planetquake.com/teamshambler/rev010811.html
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by AdamW »

wow, didn't realise how important monster behaviour was to 100% in quake. but even so - when I say monster behaviour I don't just mean in relation to killing them...for pacifist and tyson you need to have a very good feel for how the AI works, in order to control the movement and placement of monsters. but i'm happy to believe there's more going on in your 100% runs than meets the casual eye :).

i don't think i'd do quake down against doom - i wouldn't say it's easier than doom speedrunning, necessarily. for a start, doom is simplified a long way by only having to think in two dimensions, and we don't have to pull off half as many tricks as quake players do - there's hardly a quake1 speedrun without a couple of difficult tricks in it now, whereas a lot of doom runs still don't have any. i think, as long as there's a reasonable degree of complexity - as there is in both doom and quake - the difficulty will level out as times improve, because even if one is marginally simpler than the other, that'll just lead to the times getting closer to optimal and thus being harder to beat. for an extreme example, look at Defrag in quake3 - the runs there are fairly simple, especially since all the tricks are designed and there's no monsters - but that simply means the times get very close to optimal, and beating them is still hard as hell :)
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by 999cop »

999cop: don't diss quake1 speedrunning, man. Those guys are fucking good. I know there's quite a lot of us who follow at least the most important QDQ / SDA stuff...I definitely do :)
Well,I suppose I should have taken it back for what I said earlier about quake speedrunning. I shouldn't have made such a definite point before I havn't even experienced through it, sorry about that. Seriously, I don't have much of clue of how quake speedrunning demos are like due to I don't even have the full version of the game. After all, I wouldn't say Quake solo playing is such a bad game. Since both games are divided into 2 different dimensions of playing, so I wouldn't have much of opinions in this conversation. However, personally I'm pretty against Quakish style using in the offcial/serious Doom Deathmatches. I hope you'll understand and figure out of why I'm so.  ;)
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Nagasaki »

Hmm Quake 1 really needs knowledge about monster AI, even in plain runs... Play some e2m4/e2m5 on Nightmare I suggest.

Oh, and about Q3: it's indeed very very impressive what DRPD and crew are doing, but in Quake 3 you'll soon have reached a certain limit of 'difficulty'. Once you can do strafejumps, plasmaclimbs and have understood the grenade-physics, you can do almost everything as dull as it may be, and there's not much more to learn and no borders to break anymore.
For example I've done almost all the DRPD tricks after two weeks of practise, and the main point in Q3 tricking seems to be to do as hilarious but complicated (looking) tricks as possbile, even to positions which you could easily reach with a jumppad for example.

At least that's what I've experienced... that there can still be tons of things done, but there won't necessarily be anything really new technic-wise among them.

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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by tim »

well i started typing this yesterday but didn't finish it, now i think i should.  I don't think you need too many control skills for NH demos, but once they get optimised to the point bunnies are saving time then its comes in, however i have ran most of my stuff just by knowing the levels inside out, and like stubby knowing how much of whatever gun is needed to kill monsters (although i dont' really know how many nails are needed for anything :)

as for most quake tricks i suck, grenade  jumps i can marginally do, sometimes do those slope jumps (hate that secret in e4m5) .. sometimes i even stuff up rocket jumps and just lose health and don't even get off the ground :(

one last thing i've just recorded my first doom demo last night for that new site, i did ep1 max
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Stefan »

Interesting thread, this one.

Just to add my two cents, I love Quake and Doom speedrunning for different reasons: Quake because of the awesome amount of tricks - it's not just the fact that most runs have grenade/rocket jumps in them, but the variety of tricks is larger (fiend push, spike mines, you name it). Also Quake's levels are more diverse in style and architecture which adds to the pleasure of making and watching demos for them.

Doom's interesting because of its fast and furious action (Doomguy's much faster than Quakeguy to boot) - I loved watching the HR and PL maxdemo collections where players went through vast amounts of monsters in no time. Also, Doom has way more difficult challenges - in Quake it's difficult to finish levels *fast*, but in Doom it may be insanely hard to finish them *at all* (like e4m1 NM or Doom2 NM).
Heck, I realise I'm just repeating what I said in my SDA profile ;-)

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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by AdamW »

nagasaki: you have something of a point regarding quake3, certainly...but there are things coming in to combat it, like trickruns (where they pull off a bunch of the harder tricks in a map in succession - silliest example of this is the fun demo where drpd does the q3dm6 red armour to railgun grenade jump 10 times in succession...), and especially defrag, which makes you do a whole bunch of tricks quickly and accurately while circlejumping like hell, and brings in some fairly odd combination tricks - one map has a tube going through a fairly high roof which you have to get up by using a grenade-jump followed by a series of BFG-jumps off the tube wall, for example. but yeah, the range of possible tricks is a little less than in quake, because the physics were tightened up and there's no monsters.

stefan - doom is in kind of an odd situation there, yeah...there's this weird combination of runs which are getting millisecond improvements (though that really only applies to nomonsters) and some which are only just being done at all for the first time, like t2m8 and p3m1...makes it interesting :).
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

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Fuck you bitch!  :-*
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by AdamW »

haha, that spam made me read all the way through this old thread, reliving lots of interesting stuff and wondering what cool comment would be at the end to resurrect the discussion...what a disappointment!

so, since I'm stuck on a p2-400 laptop at the moment (and will be buying a Flybook before I get a desktop system capable of playing Doom3)...how's it looking for trick / speed running?
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Vile »

Pretty bad, the demo sizes are ridiculously huge (the included demo that runs for only about 1.5 minutes is 71.4 mb).  Naturally this heavily discourages a structure similar to the compet-n archives or SDA.  Also, it seems that the few possible areas of the game that lend itself to shortcuts are effectively controlled.  A few examples are:

1. Reaching a higher balcony.  If you can find a way to reach it via a shortcut like a grenade jump, an invisible barrier around the balcony is present until you reach it the normal way.  I've seen this twice so far.  Here's a screenshot of one of the examples:

http://stickmen.dreyermachine.com/vile/shortcut1.jpg

You can barely see the balcony off to the upper right, my flashlight was pointing to a shortcut that was minor, but actually works.

2. A doorway that remains closed until you complete a certain goal.  There was a possible shortcut in the recycling plant, but a door just beyond that remains closed until you complete the objective as normal.  Very annoying.

The only possibility would be a collaborative effort such as Doom 3 Done Quick, and even then, the large demo sizes and high machine demands for good avi recordings would be an issue.
Last edited by Vile on 15.08.2004 03:11, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Vile »

Also, while actually attempting a recording myself earlier, I noticed something else that would kill competitive recording.  It deals with fps loss impacting the recording process.  Here's how it works:

Say I'm playing single player as I normally do.  If I experience a loss in fps, the game doesn't hold back, everything else moves at the speed it usually does and fighting back is tough.

However, if I'm recording a demo in single player, then experience fps loss, the game seems to slow down with me.  Enemies move slower and so do I, as if the game is actually compensating me for the loss in framerate.  Also, the resulting demo plays back WITHOUT that same slowdown.  In short, this means that people with slower PCs can cheat by using slowdown that occurs automatically in the recording process.  Pretty shitty deal, and it wouldn't surprise me if people took advantage of it.

EDIT: Funny though, this could actually be considered a gameplay aide during casual play for those who suffer horrible fps loss at times and have the space to spare.  Just have a demo recording and those situations become more managable.

EDIT 2: I made a run of Hell earlier on Veteran skill which was pretty easy overall (especially with the slowdown present).  The resulting demo was 322 mb, and eventually the demo slowed to about 2 fps during playback.  I promptly deleted it.
Last edited by Vile on 16.08.2004 00:31, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by admin »

Uh, if you have fps problems, changing the timescale cvar in console should give you some slowmo.

The huge demo sizes seriously hinder any form of demo exchange :(
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Vile »

The demo slowdown suggestion was just for laughs.

As for demo sizes, it's only rumors right now, but id might be looking into it.  Maybe a future patch can provide the answer.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by AdamW »

quick, somebody port .lmp :)

either that or start a bittorrent tracker...
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Waldon »

As far as I see, speedrunning is very unpractical in D3. All areas are completely closed, RJs work but rocket pushes seem useless, and although the lack of a builtin timer and monster counter could be taken care of with a simple mod, I assume, running would largely consist of not killing the monsters that repeatedly spawn behind the player :)

There's no plasma climbing either. There's some lame circle/strafe jumping and ramp jumps. At least the player gets grenades quite early in the game, so some tricks may be possible with those.

The game's heavily scripted nature is going to be the biggest problem with speedrunning, I think.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Waldon »

OT:

Note to self: wait for Quake 4 to play fun multi games. As much money and attention as D3 is getting right now, the maps that come with it aren't good (imho), the weapons are not tuned right, plus it's going to take the OSP/CPMA teams a few months to come out with something polished anyway, not to mention the ridiculous demo sizes. Btw, did anyone try the demo compression command in game yet?

They say Q4 going to be an equal blend of single and multiplayer. I'm keeping my hopes up, for now. Only a year and a half or so to go.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Vile »

Waldon: yeah, I made two runs of Hell, with and without the command.  Using it cut the demo size in half, but the game refused to play it back due to an error (I forget exactly what it said).
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by myk »

DOOM 3 doesn't even support demo recording, properly speaking... it just does screencatching... doing it with an external program is more effective, it seems.

Heh, I bet the spam bot chose this thread due to Stubgaard's  sig.
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Re: Quake1 speedrunning forum

Post by Waldon »

This is not all that useful for speedrunning, but I don't remember anyone mentioning it anywhere: while interacting with a computer in game, pressing jump makes the player execute a backwards jump far enough away from the console to bring up the weapon.